kanotix.com

All the news about Kanotix - NEW: kanotix will no longer be based on debian sid

maia - 29.11.2006, 15:18 Uhr
Titel: NEW: kanotix will no longer be based on debian sid
it seems to be definitive that kanotix will no longer be based on debian-sid. kano decided - for economical and stability reasons - to build his distribution on another basis instead. probably the ubuntu repos. that's why slh (co-developer/maintainer) left the project and slam (webmaster) will follow soon. slam will be engaged in a new sid-project in the future.

slam already made a statement on the german forum: http://kanotix.com/PNphpBB2-viewtopic-t-22868.html

kelmo & slh on the english forum:
http://kanotix.com/PNphpBB2-viewtopic-t-22892.html

kano in the news-section:
http://www.kanotix.com/Article210.html

maia
The_Seeker - 29.11.2006, 16:00 Uhr
Titel: RE: NEW: kanotix to be based on ubuntu
I'll head off to Babel Fish...
piper - 29.11.2006, 16:13 Uhr
Titel: RE: NEW: kanotix to be based on ubuntu
Zitat:
In passed the days the budding rumors harm the project and its Community. In particular lengthily expanded speculations are suitable over the end of KANOTIX in the forum or IRC for disconcerting less arrivierte users and/or new verscheuchen. To spread or feed I appeliere therefore to all here in the interest of the KANOTIX of project no further rumors.

Kano has after 3 years of hard work (often day and night) decided changes to make. Not least also because it must secure its commercial/vocational basis, to which the KANOTIX project could not contribute unfortunately. It will not provide therefore in the future no more to KANOTIX based on Debian Sid. It examines the alternatives at present, a decision in addition actual so far I white - yet not met. As soon as somewhat user is certain rely can on the KANOTIX, Kano will surely clearly express itself in addition.

This decision is substantial for each user, in addition, for each Developer and for all team members. Everyone must even in peace examine and decide which it by its operating system expected and/or naturally also, where and which he is ready in a Community voluntarily to bring in.

I believe that a Etch or Edgy based KANOTIX surely finds and for many of advantage be can its target group. It will attract most likely also new users, who are not content with Kubuntu or Mepis. It is thus very well possible drauf something solid to construct - also commercial possibilities are open.

I personally am however bound for vocational and world-descriptive reasons at Debian Sid, and can begin therefore with the above options nothing. My loyalty and acknowledgment apply further for Kano, I it therefore at least until next year in the context of my possibilities will here continue to support. I do not hide however also that at the same time I (beside other open SOURCE projects in which I already longer cooperate) with a new project engage myself, which develops on pure Debian Sid. A majority of my energy and time will in the future flow there therefore.

I learned from Kano and the great KANOTIX Community in the past years much and am sincerely grateful for it.

Greetings,
Chris


I, like slam, is dedicated to SID Smilie
jackiebrown - 29.11.2006, 17:11 Uhr
Titel: RE: NEW: kanotix to be based on ubuntu
How depressing.

But I really wish Kano the best and only had to deal with my machine.
craigevil - 29.11.2006, 20:27 Uhr
Titel: RE: NEW: kanotix to be based on ubuntu
I wish Kano all the best. Kanotix was my first introduction to Linux. While I understand his reasons, it is a sad thing for the Kanotix community.

That said if I wanted Ubuntu or even Etch I would have just installed it.

Kanotix is the best distro simply because it is one of the few Debian distros that uses Sid. Switching to Testing will make it just like all the other Debian based distros.

So are slh and slam going to be doing a Sid fork of Kanotix? If so how does one find info about the new project?
josk - 29.11.2006, 20:35 Uhr
Titel: RE: NEW: kanotix to be based on ubuntu
Have to check the calendar....No....No.......its not first of april......
phen - 29.11.2006, 21:07 Uhr
Titel: RE: NEW: kanotix to be based on ubuntu
i'd like to know about slam's participating project too! any news?!? details? NAMES Winken ?
Daniele - 29.11.2006, 21:33 Uhr
Titel: Re: NEW: kanotix to be based on ubuntu
maia hat folgendes geschrieben::
it seems to be definitive that kanotix will no longer be based on debian-sid. kano decided - for economical and stability reasons - to build his distribution on another basis instead. probably the ubuntu repos. that's why slh (co-developer/maintainer) left the project and slam (webmaster) will follow soon. slam will be engaged in a new sid-project in the future.

slam already made a statement on the german forum: http://kanotix.com/PNphpBB2-viewtopic-t-22868.html

maia


Maia

Thanks for starting this thread which informs the poor souls who can only read English Smilie

From my reply to you in the German forum it is quite clear that I have an extremely intense dislike for everything *buntu
eco2geek - 29.11.2006, 21:36 Uhr
Titel:
Could Kano please make a statement about what's going on?

(I've been concerned lately about Kanotix, because it's been almost a year now w/o a new release. SLH leaving greatly increased that concern -- something's up with the direction Kanotix is going.

OTOH, my concerns are selfish, in that I can't contribute much to the project.

It would be nice to have more information in English about what's going on, though.)
Daniele - 29.11.2006, 22:16 Uhr
Titel:
eco2geek hat folgendes geschrieben::
something's up with the direction Kanotix is going.

OTOH, my concerns are selfish, in that I can't contribute much to the project.



The idea I have of the situation, also after reading the German forums: there is a *very strong* difference of opinion between the ones who support Sid and the ones who want something else. Problem is, Kano doesn't want to base Kanotix on Debian Sid any longer. If he takes the "Etch way", I'll support him 100/%
But if he takes the Ubuntu way, that is the end of Kanotix for me.

As to contributing to a project, there are so many ways...

In the past, typically my contribution to Linux distros was hundreds, maybe thousands of posts to help fellow users.

As to Kanotix, in the past my contribution was financial. However when I bought new hardware, I couldn't use Kanotix any longer, at least for a few months. I am of the opinion that you donate to projects you use.
eco2geek - 29.11.2006, 22:38 Uhr
Titel:
Yes, I agree w/you. Testing isn't that far behind unstable anyway.

There are many reasons not to want to go with an Ubuntu-based distro, and IMO the biggest is, instead of using a distro that "mines" Debian (or "leeches" from it, if you prefer), why not just use and support Debian in the first place.

(Off-topic, one strength that *buntu has -- probably the main reason for its popularity -- is that it actively tries to make things easy/easier for newbies. One thing I've wanted to see for a while now is a sort of "Sid Watch" web site where clever people explain how to get past the inevitable bumps in Sid -- kind of like Devil and Etorix do here.)

I admit I've been reprehensibly lax about supporting Kanotix with money. Geschockt
titan - 29.11.2006, 22:47 Uhr
Titel:
It would be nice to get some facts rather than just guess work. I don't think I would like any future Kanotix or whatever the new version is called based on anything other than pure Debian. I could go with testing but not Ubuntu but lets see what the future holds. Whatever the future thanks to Kano,SLH and others for producing one of the best Linux distros ever.
slam - 29.11.2006, 23:09 Uhr
Titel:
Sorry, folks for not posting immediately an English translation to my German post - my day was packed with work outside the Linux world. Just in case piper's (babel-)fishy translation included confusing stuff, I will summarize the important parts here for you now (and add some stuff for English speakers only):

There have been wild rumors the last days here in the forums, the IRC and even on outside sites, and I feel that letting them continue could harm the KANOTIX project and it's Community. In particular lengthily expanded speculations over a possible end of KANOTIX have been suitable to distract people. In the interest of KANOTIX and in respect to Kano I ask you to please stop seeding, spreading or feeding such.

After 3 years of hard work (often day and night) Kano decided to do some important changes. One of his motivations to do so is to secure a financial and professional future for him, as the KANOTIX project unfortunately was not able to provide that. He will not any more base KANOTIX on Debian Sid. He is examining alternatives at present, a decision has yet not been met - as far as I know. As soon as there is information the community could rely on with certainty, Kano definitely will inform everybody.

This decision is substantial for each user, and in addition, also for each developer and all team members. Everyone must examine and decide his expectations from his operating system, and of course also where and in which community he is willing to volunteer and contribute.

I believe that a Etch or Edgy based KANOTIX will be a nice system with many advantages for many of you. It will additionally most likely attract new users, who are not 100% happy with Kubuntu or Mepis. I feel that it would be a fine base for many options - also commercial possibilities are open.

I personally am however bound to Debian Sid for professional and political reasons, and therefore have no use for such a product. My loyalty and acknowledgment for Kano remain untouched; Therefore at least until next year I will be around and continue to support Kano. But I'll not hide however the fact that at the same time (besides other open SOURCE projects I am involved in for a long time) I engaged myself in a new project, which develops a pure Debian Sid system. A majority of my energy and time in the future will flow into that. In respect to Kano and his work I will not advertise links to this project here or in the IRC and would ask everybody else to do the same.

Kano and the great KANOTIX Community have been a great source of inspiration and learning in the past years much and I am sincerely grateful for that.

Ah yes, a successor for my work is wanted! Of course I will be around to help securing a smooth transition.

Greetings,
Chris
piper - 29.11.2006, 23:19 Uhr
Titel:
AMEN

And thank you for posting that in "REAL" english

My apologies, if the translation confused anyone.
Daniele - 29.11.2006, 23:20 Uhr
Titel:
eco2geek hat folgendes geschrieben::
.

There are many reasons not to want to go with an Ubuntu-based distro, and IMO the biggest is, instead of using a distro that "mines" Debian (or "leeches" from it, if you prefer), why not just use and support Debian in the first place.



I agree, absolutely. Supporting Ubuntu means supporting a parasite. Not to mention that Debian is so much better anyway, with its 3 branches (without taking experimental into account), loads of external repos...

Zitat:


One thing I've wanted to see for a while now is a sort of "Sid Watch" web site where clever people explain how to get past the inevitable bumps in Sid -- kind of like Devil and Etorix do here.



Trouble is, Debian doesn't support the use of a pure Sid based system, never did.
piper - 29.11.2006, 23:31 Uhr
Titel:
Trouble is

without... SID = NO DEBIAN

That is a fact.
Daniele - 29.11.2006, 23:38 Uhr
Titel:
piper hat folgendes geschrieben::
Trouble is

without... SID = NO DEBIAN

That is a fact.


That is of course true. No experiments, no nothing.

Trouble is, how many people are willing to use an experimental drug? Is that a good idea? (just an example)
piper - 29.11.2006, 23:43 Uhr
Titel:
"how many people are willing to use an experimental drug? "

millions

why do you think we are where we are today ??

by the way, i am in the medical field.

and the majority are not from the USA
nish - 30.11.2006, 00:58 Uhr
Titel:
I very much appreciate Slam posting here in English. I for one have been translating like mad with Google what was necessary from the German forum.

I have stuck with Kanotix because of and in spite of it being Sid. IF it wasn't Sid, I could manage Debian testing on my own for the most part. I could certainly handle stable. Who couldn't?

I want to thank everybody involved, too. Developers AND community that pitches in. Not sure what the future linux holds though for me I believe it is probably just going with Etch right through until he is stable.

Kanotix made unstable stable for me. You know what I mean? I don't have the time to acquire the skill - I wish I could fix the breakages myself. And I wish things had gone better that I could've scraped some cash together. I am more than willing to pay for support but the bank account isn't Traurig

thanks to Kano and the whole team and I will certainly try out anything team members go for in developing a Sid fork. I will not go for any *buntu stuff. Have been looking in on their forums, etc and it is just sooooo out there from Debian. Not for me. I believe I am better than that. Not much. But can definitely linux better than their average user Cool

Thanks again and I hope everyone involved with Kanotix prospers and is happy with their decisions!

Nish
gs - 30.11.2006, 06:39 Uhr
Titel:
as is evident from SLAMs post there are different interests and needs and various avenues to go.

In the past I have looked at SuSE, Mandrake, Mepis, etc, and, of course (k)Ubuntu. What I looked for was a linux-distro which could replace Windows and what I found was KANOTIX. Only Kanotix was able to support, in most cases, "out of the box" my hardware on several computers, and if something, exceptionally, did not work, there is the forum with immediate and friendly help....

I am sure: whatever Kano and coworkers will develop in the future it will have the "Kano-features": excellent hardware recognition and helpful scripts, and a supportive forum as is now.
Other than nish - last post - I would not be able to handel Sid without prominent help, but I, really, do no need Sid. Like many users I need a linux distro which works on my computer, let me write, surf, phone, watch television and DVDs etc. This is what the present Kanotix gives me and what - I am sure - a future Kanotix will give me as well.
As to the thrill involved in playing with Sid, breaking things and getting them going again, there will always possibilities around, may be with Slams new project.
Therefore, folks, lets wait and see and, possibly, be surprised what develops......

I have learned a lot along the way. A big " thankyou" to Kano and to all who have helped him! And good luck.....
bobdawn - 30.11.2006, 07:15 Uhr
Titel:
I came here from Mepis. My needs are a Debian base, KDE (I've tried Gnome, but don't like it), up-to-date software, h2 and the other Kanotix scripts and that wonderful, helpful and friendly community.

I'm watching developments with interest (from sunny Queensland), but I'm happy to follow the good guys, wherever they decide to go, although I'd worry if they followed Mark Shuttleworth in trying to fork Debian. I think that (like Novell) he has his own agenda.

By the way, like piper, I'm medical, too, and I'm prepared to take a few risks along the way.

Kano and his team deserve all our gratitude and support.
drb - 30.11.2006, 09:20 Uhr
Titel:
For those with a 'stable' 'unstable' OS on their PCs, is there a transition process from Sid to Etch without a reinstall. Is 'Kanotix' limited to scripts (which the user can decide to run or not) and configurations (which can be changed)?

drb
mikekgr - 30.11.2006, 10:16 Uhr
Titel:
Dear Mr. Kano, dear all in this fantastic community,

I very would like to thanks Mr. Slam posting his thoughts here in English.

My trip to Kanotix started because KAnotix was/is "stable" sid. Thant was/is amazing...

From my part, I want to thanks everybody involved to this fantastic BIG project, Developers, community and users.

I hope that the wise Kano and the whole team will continue all together using pure Debian but otherwise I wish all the best to them.

I will pleasuring try out anything team members developing a Sid fork.
I don't like any ubuntu stuff.

Last but no least, something to my friend Kano: (although we never see each other face to face),
I HOPE ALL HAPPINESS AND SUCCESS TO YOU AND TO YOUR NEW PROJECT. YOU CERTAINLY DESERVE THIS !!!

Best Regards,
Mike Kranidis
Gowator - 30.11.2006, 16:09 Uhr
Titel:
Wow what a sad day!
As has been said its time we all reexamine out own motivations... but non of this would have been possible without all of the team ...

I tried kubuntu and ... I have to say I have problems.
Non of these in itself are insurmountable but....
One one level there is the moral issue someone said 'leeching' perhaps that's apt or not but its close...
On a completely seperate issue is the fact ubuntu is becoming less and less Debian ... Im not sure if this is by choice, I rather suspect it is more by design...

I have my personal pet theory on this... Shuttleworth decided that the users shouldn't have to type a password and asked some knowledgable people if it was possible... they said yep and off they went..

When you look into trying to remove the sudu stuff from (K)ununtu its a nightmare, indeed I think most of the -ubuntu packages are just a consequence of this chain reaction and hte deeper you look the deeper it goes... its not so much the apps that *need* sudo but then the libs they depend on and then other apps usng these libs..

Its just MHO but sooner or later this chain reaction will become a meltdown...
i actually tried backing out the mods but again IMVHO its easier to start with unstable and work forwards than Ubuntu and work backwards...
wegface - 30.11.2006, 19:35 Uhr
Titel:
Geschockt
Kind of knew this would happen eventually- the clues have been there a while. But still shocked to hear its now. Finding another (reasonably) small distro, of this calibre will prove tricky.
Tough call on the best course of action too, Ubuntu is an ugly word to alot of debian users, but etch (although not too far behind) can prove frustrating when used to sid. And Sid without the help of a tight nit, and fairly small community is probably too much hassle for me. Debian forums are huge and you dont get any "dont dist-upgrade today" warnings or quick fixes.
To everyone at Kanotix, i say a big thankyou, and i only hope our relationship can continue. Peace.
Daniele - 30.11.2006, 21:32 Uhr
Titel:
wegface hat folgendes geschrieben::

etch (although not too far behind) can prove frustrating when used to sid. And Sid without the help of a tight nit, and fairly small community is probably too much hassle for me. Debian forums are huge and you dont get any "dont dist-upgrade today" warnings or quick fixes.


Actually Etch and Sid are very near in terms of being bleeding edge right now. And I really can't see any good reason why one couldn't use Etch for *at least* 6 months after it goes stable.

As to Debian forums not giving any advice on Sid, the reason is very simple: during all these years I can't remember a single Debian forum not warning against the use of Sid. The general Debian wisdom is that Sid should only be used to report bugs to Debian. Unless you are a very advanced user (read: developer) who can fix the bugs on his/her own.
Would you use an alpha or a beta of any other distro as your daily OS?
devil - 30.11.2006, 21:36 Uhr
Titel:
kanotix is not any other distro. we achieved to get unstable as stable as possible, no matter what the elite at debian says.

greetz
devil
Daniele - 30.11.2006, 21:53 Uhr
Titel:
devil hat folgendes geschrieben::
kanotix is not any other distro. we achieved to get unstable as stable as possible, no matter what the elite at debian says.

greetz
devil


Maybe so, but I was replying to wegface about using Debian Sid in its pure form. Only for a very selected few.
anticapitalista - 30.11.2006, 22:19 Uhr
Titel:
Daniele hat folgendes geschrieben::
devil hat folgendes geschrieben::
kanotix is not any other distro. we achieved to get unstable as stable as possible, no matter what the elite at debian says.

greetz
devil


Maybe so, but I was replying to wegface about using Debian Sid in its pure form. Only for a very selected few.


This is exactly what I (we) will miss with Kanotix no longer being based on Sid. The fact that people here post warnings/solutions to any possible Sid problems.
I use a variety of distros, Mepis 3.4.3, a Mepis 3.4.3 remaster (both fully Sid dist-upgraded), Kanotix 2005-04 (fully dist-upgraded) and Debian Sid netinstall (fully dist-upgraded) and to tell the truth the only place where I get reliable advice/warnings is here. Mepis no longer caters for its debian distro users and Debian itself, as Daniele points out, basically gives warnings not to use Sid and leaves you on your own.

For me there is now a huge hole and it remains to be seen if it can be filled. I sure do hope so.
phen - 30.11.2006, 22:47 Uhr
Titel:
Code:

This is exactly what I (we) will miss with Kanotix no longer being based on Sid. The fact that people here post warnings/solutions to any possible Sid problems.


and, like devil said, to get unstable as good as stable, while with a handling soft as butter! from my point of view: superior (sic)! and for that, the whole team has my respect!
i'll watch and tryout kanotix (or whatever the upcoming project will be called), but i'd like to stay with sid, though for the times to come i'll have to learn much, much more!
eco2geek - 01.12.2006, 00:03 Uhr
Titel:
There's two ways of approaching any Linux distro that makes its developmental repositories open to the public:

Take openSUSE, for example. If you want KDE 3.5.5 and X.org 7.1, you'll either have to wait until the release of 10.2, or mess around with "unsupported" development packages. Just like with Kanotix, it really helps to have a user community that can help you deal with the bugs.

The payoff, of course, is that you get to use new features long before they make it into the "stable" release.

AFAICT, Kanotix is "Debian Sid in its pure form". And Kanotix has made it accessible for people like me who don't, say, know how to fix the occasional deb package post-install script error.
ice - 01.12.2006, 06:39 Uhr
Titel:
Kanotix was a brilliant distro, in that it provided an answer to certain existing conditions:

1. The Debian installer sucked
2. Testing was obsolete
3. Sid was stable enough

Neither #1 nor #2 hold true anymore, as anyone who has installed one of Etch daily snapshots will testify. As far as #3 goes, I can see no use for it other than for destructive tests or pure masochism.

I think Kano made the right decision and I will look forward to Kanotix new-and-improved or whatever (neu und verbessert?)

Cheers.
Mike Shepard - 01.12.2006, 08:53 Uhr
Titel:
I too find this somewhat dishearting. After using Kanotix since the 2004-02 version, I've gotten used to seeing the updates posted, same people in the forums and irc helping out, news updates, etc. Basically the routine many of us have fallen into of checking forums everyday, popping into the irc, checking for new releases, etc. It's sad that all this is going to change (some may argue that it won't be that big a change) not to say that the change won't be good, and choice of distro's put out by people we've grown to know and trust will be nice. They say all good things must end, it's just hard to face it when it actually happens. I'm sure everything will work itself out fine but I do think there might be a bit of a rocky road ahead. Obviously, most of these things (forum and such) will be mostly the same but it's going to be kind of a start over for everyone with testing a distro to see how it suites us and such, which ought to be interresting. It's actually something many of us thought we would never be doing - looking for a replacement to our kanotix distro (the current one based on sid), although I am going to try to keep mine going as long as possible (till a d-u borks it).
As much as this saddens me (I too would like it to remain sid based), from what I've reading it sounds like something that needs to be done and I wish the best for Kanotix and all the projects spawning from this (which I'm sure we'll all be trying also). At least in the case of Kanotix, I'm sure which ever route is taken when the change is finalized will lead to a very excellent distro, based on the previous work put out by Kano and team. I also look forward to the future and to where these changes will lead us..


Many thanks to everyone involved for giving me a great distro to use these past years and new ones to use in the future.

Cheers,
Mike
vilde - 01.12.2006, 15:11 Uhr
Titel:
I'm always calling my self a user and neither a developer nor a programmer, I have used and tried many Linux-distributions with the start of, if I remember right Red Hat 5 or 4. So far Kanotix is the over all best I ever tried. Debian Sid or something else as base, I don't really care although I never understood what Debian Sid is more than the newest of the newest or something like that. The main reason for me to use Kanotix is:

1 - Very good hardware detection.
2 - The best, fastest and most friendly forum I ever joined.
3 - Easy upgrading with h2:s script

I hope this will go on and I thank everybody who has done Kanotix to what it is and I hope that it will go on being the best Linux distribution.

Ola
Daniele - 01.12.2006, 15:38 Uhr
Titel:
ice hat folgendes geschrieben::

3. Sid was stable enough
---------------------------------------------------------------------
As far as #3 goes, I can see no use for it other than for destructive tests or pure masochism.

I think Kano made the right decision and I will look forward to Kanotix new-and-improved or whatever (neu und verbessert?)

Cheers.


Nice to read that somebody else feels like me, for once.

There was a time when Sid was reasonably stable, possibly due to the slow Debian release cycle. Now things have changed, Debian is in a state of continuous flux (except of course for stable) and therefore Sid resembles an alpha.
I don't believe anybody will be able to track Sid for long, without risking to become insane. That is just ordinary common sense.
piper - 01.12.2006, 16:11 Uhr
Titel:
LOL
gs - 01.12.2006, 18:18 Uhr
Titel:
@ ice: you write that "Kanotix was a brillant distro" - I would say, Kanotix still is a brillant distro
and if you have it running on your computer to your satisfaction, just leave it untouched by dist-upgrades and you will have, for years - thats how long they have been using WinXP in the windows world - a brillant distro, no need to constantly dealing with security issues
and in the meantime, watchout, as most of us do, where Kano is going......
Daniele - 01.12.2006, 20:23 Uhr
Titel:
gs hat folgendes geschrieben::

and if you have it running on your computer to your satisfaction, just leave it untouched by dist-upgrades and you will have, for years - thats how long they have been using WinXP in the windows world - a brillant distro, no need to constantly dealing with security issues


Well, here is what each of us could do: get read of Sid in your sources list and replace it with Etch. Keep dist-upgrading until Etch is declared stable.
Once Etch becomes stable, there won't be any need to dist-upgrade any longer, but you'll have some 19,000 packages you could download. That is what I have after adding some extra repos.
slam - 01.12.2006, 22:05 Uhr
Titel:
Zitat:
I don't believe anybody will be able to track Sid for long, without risking to become insane. That is just ordinary common sense.

For everybody believing that the above sentence is very much true:
If you insist in believing in your own insanity - check out alternatives to Daniele's point of view. Winken
@Daniele: Your opinion is very much appreciated and has become common sense already now here. Probably that's the right moment to retire from marketing it even more ...
Debian is a world of possibilities and probabilities for everybody who is interested in exploring them. stay cool and tell all of the story ...
Greetings,
Chris
P.S.: Ah, yeah. Please stay away from Goethe, if you still feel you need to "educate the world".
anticapitalista - 01.12.2006, 22:57 Uhr
Titel:
Daniele hat folgendes geschrieben::

Well, here is what each of us could do: get read of Sid in your sources list and replace it with Etch. Keep dist-upgrading until Etch is declared stable.
Once Etch becomes stable, there won't be any need to dist-upgrade any longer, but you'll have some 19,000 packages you could download. That is what I have after adding some extra repos.


Yes, but you seem to be missing the point about what Kanotix stood for (deliberate use of the past tense). Kanotix, as has been pointed out already on this thread, was deliberately set up as a distro for debian sid users. Its advantage over debian sid pure was that it was/is easier to install, comes with lots of useful scripts to help install non-free drivers and packaged onto a livecd.
That, and the great work by people on this forum, basically 'tamed' sid. It is this (sorry for repeating myself) that will no longer exist, whatever path Kano chooses (etch or Ubuntu).
Daniele - 01.12.2006, 22:59 Uhr
Titel:
@ slam

If you insist:

Round 1: Kano is still the boss here and he seems to share my views (and now I understand why so much hatred just for suggesting a one off Kanotix release based on Etch).

Round 2: we'll talk about that in one year or two.

As to Goethe, sorry, I didn't know it was your personal property.
slam - 01.12.2006, 23:16 Uhr
Titel:
@ Daniele: The person making fire is very much appreciated in the wilderness - someone has to do it, finally. However, feeding the fire inside a FOSS project simply shows complete misunderstanding of what's going on and what it is all about.

Besides that, I wish you the very best for your personal Debian Stable/Testing campaign - which simply never had anything to do with KANOTIX.

Goethe isn't anyones property - fortunately. However, surrounding yourself with his words shows affinity, at least. And affinity does not necessarily imply anything further ... (and yes, I changed my 2nd signature line exclusively for you).

Greetings,
Chris
Daniele - 01.12.2006, 23:36 Uhr
Titel:
slam hat folgendes geschrieben::
@ Daniele: The person making fire is very much appreciated in the wilderness - someone has to do it, finally. However, feeding the fire inside a FOSS project simply shows complete misunderstanding of what's going on and what it is all about.

Besides that, I wish you the very best for your personal Debian Stable/Testing campaign - which simply never had anything to do with KANOTIX.



Which fire are you talking about? Many of you (developers and team members) have already moved to http://sidux.com/
There can't be any fire without wood.

That Testing had never anything to do with Kanotix is simply untrue: who took care that the instructions to track Testing instead of Sid disappeared from the front page?
eco2geek - 02.12.2006, 02:27 Uhr
Titel:
Daniele hat folgendes geschrieben::
Well, here is what each of us could do: get read of Sid in your sources list and replace it with Etch. Keep dist-upgrading until Etch is declared stable.
Once Etch becomes stable, there won't be any need to dist-upgrade any longer, but you'll have some 19,000 packages you could download. That is what I have after adding some extra repos.

Daniele, you know as well as we do that the day after Etch becomes "stable," the "testing" repo will have new packages in it. Most of us would be dist-upgrading testing if we ran it, just like we dist-upgrade Sid. There might be fewer bumps along the way, but there'd still be bumps.

So I'm not really sure what point you're trying to make here.

(Personally, I don't care about the unstable vs. testing issue. As I understand it, the packages filter down pretty fast.)

slam hat folgendes geschrieben::
"Life's a bitch, and mine's getting better every day."

That was fast.
Daniele - 02.12.2006, 02:46 Uhr
Titel:
eco2geek hat folgendes geschrieben::

Daniele, you know as well as we do that the day after Etch becomes "stable," the "testing" repo will have new packages in it. Most of us would be dist-upgrading testing if we ran it, just like we dist-upgrade Sid. There might be fewer bumps along the way, but there'd still be bumps.

So I'm not really sure what point you're trying to make here.



Hi eco2geek

I wasn't really trying to make any point. I was mainly replying to gs.

However Stable should be bleeding edge enough for at least a few months after release.

Testing, on the other hand, is normally very chaotic for a few months after a release.

So my opinion would be: run Stable for a few months, then dist-upgrade to testing if you want something more bleeding edge.
DeepDayze - 02.12.2006, 03:15 Uhr
Titel:
h2's scripts work well in helping people get thru the bumps in Sid. Perhaps they can be useful (with adaptations for other sid-based distros)
Also Kano's scripts are very well done...hopefully they will be improved further and adaptable to other flavors of Sid
jackiebrown - 02.12.2006, 03:53 Uhr
Titel:
ice hat folgendes geschrieben::
Kanotix was a brilliant distro, in that it provided an answer to certain existing conditions:

1. The Debian installer sucked
2. Testing was obsolete
3. Sid was stable enough

Neither #1 nor #2 hold true anymore, as anyone who has installed one of Etch daily snapshots will testify. As far as #3 goes, I can see no use for it other than for destructive tests or pure masochism.

I think Kano made the right decision and I will look forward to Kanotix new-and-improved or whatever (neu und verbessert?)

Cheers.


I think you misunderstand Debian nomenclature. Etch != testing. Etch is a name for the current distribution of Debian.

When talking of a distro based on Etch that now means a distro based on stable not testing.
UncleDeadley - 02.12.2006, 04:43 Uhr
Titel:
DeepDayze hat folgendes geschrieben::
h2's scripts work well in helping people get thru the bumps in Sid. Perhaps they can be useful (with adaptations for other sid-based distros)
Also Kano's scripts are very well done...hopefully they will be improved further and adaptable to other flavors of Sid


Not necessarily. I thought h2 said that his script was merely implementing all the fixes that others made. His script won't be making any new fixes if the people (all listed in the beginning of the script) making the fixes leave.
ice - 02.12.2006, 07:05 Uhr
Titel:
slam hat folgendes geschrieben::

Besides that, I wish you the very best for your personal Debian Stable/Testing campaign - which simply never had anything to do with KANOTIX.

Slam,

I never quite understood your rationale for sticking to a repository that has gone to pot; from stable enough to disfunctional enough in, what, one year?

A year ago Kanotix ranked #14 on Distrowatch; now it ranks #23 behind the likes of Puppy, Sabayon and Perspire. Do you have another explanation as to what caused Kanotix to sink faster than Bush's approval rating?
ice - 02.12.2006, 07:28 Uhr
Titel:
DeepDayze hat folgendes geschrieben::
h2's scripts work well in helping people get thru the bumps in Sid. Perhaps they can be useful (with adaptations for other sid-based distros)

Here it is: the kiss of death of another Linux distro Smilie

Bumps? H2's scripts? Excuse me, but that's not the way Apt is supposed to work. How long do you expect Kanotix to survive when you have to resort to kludges and such-and-such emergency script to fix things that break down with a routine upgrade?

That's the reason why ditching Sid is not only reasonable, it has become mandatory.
drb - 02.12.2006, 08:42 Uhr
Titel:
Just a year of 2005-04 starting with an RC and no bumps. Fully d-u upgraded and working great. Never used h2's script as I haven't needed to.
kelmo - 02.12.2006, 09:29 Uhr
Titel:
ice hat folgendes geschrieben::

A year ago Kanotix ranked #14 on Distrowatch; now it ranks #23 behind the likes of Puppy, Sabayon and Perspire. Do you have another explanation as to what caused Kanotix to sink faster than Bush's approval rating?


Lack of release and innovation.

This thread is turning into bullshit. Have a Nice Day.
h2 - 02.12.2006, 10:12 Uhr
Titel:
ice, you're really too funny, I'm glad I've missed your other posts. Meanwhile, I'll just wait for my sid desktops to fail, but it's getting annoying, they are mostly all on 1 year and counting, bumps and humps just part of the ride I guess.

I'll also let my friends know that their sid desktops aren't working either, since that will I'm sure confuse them every time they boot up and run them with no problems. Maybe the problem isn't sid, hmmm?

If the idea that some programming can help smooth out bumps seems odd to you, what were you ever doing using kanotix, which is filled with scripts that do one thing or another for the user so they don't have to learn it all themselves.

Anyway, despite the silliness of this thread, I really hope that kano finds himself what he's looking for, and that whatever happens is for the best.
@jens - 02.12.2006, 14:14 Uhr
Titel:
jackiebrown hat folgendes geschrieben::
ice hat folgendes geschrieben::
Kanotix was a brilliant distro, in that it provided an answer to certain existing conditions:

1. The Debian installer sucked
2. Testing was obsolete
3. Sid was stable enough

Neither #1 nor #2 hold true anymore, as anyone who has installed one of Etch daily snapshots will testify. As far as #3 goes, I can see no use for it other than for destructive tests or pure masochism.

I think Kano made the right decision and I will look forward to Kanotix new-and-improved or whatever (neu und verbessert?)

Cheers.


I think you misunderstand Debian nomenclature. Etch != testing.


That's wrong. "Sarge" is stable, "Etch" is testing, and Sid is *always!* unstable. BTW, all the Debian names come from "Toy Story".

Greetings
@jens
UncleDeadley - 02.12.2006, 17:51 Uhr
Titel:
@jens,
I think jackie meant that etch isn't strictly the same as testing. One day, etch will become 'stable' and there will be a new 'testing'.
GP - 02.12.2006, 18:04 Uhr
Titel:
Needless to say -- I voiced this opinion long time ago -- if basing Kanotix on testing rather than Unstable means more timely releases, I'm all for it. Debian seems to have a rough time releasing Etch:
<http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel-announce/2006/11/msg00004.html>
so, even with testing, Kanotix should be a step ahead. But the ShuttleBuntu would definitely drive me away from Kanotix.
ice - 02.12.2006, 19:09 Uhr
Titel:
kelmo hat folgendes geschrieben::

Lack of release and innovation.

This thread is turning into bullshit. Have a Nice Day.

I like your style Kelmo. You have understood that people get tired fast of your "complex personality", so it's better to keep it short and to the point. Like a wise man from the mountain would.

Kanotix is gone and this thead makes little sense indeed.

So thanks for the wisdom, Zarathustra. Have the day you deserve.
michael7 - 02.12.2006, 22:26 Uhr
Titel:
@ice,

Your comments are boorish and churlish.
Crest - 03.12.2006, 00:39 Uhr
Titel:
Don't start flame wars here, Kanotix has not deserved it.
mycque - 03.12.2006, 01:10 Uhr
Titel:
My first linux install for all the above reasons, i.e. hardware recognition. Thanks Kano, slh and h2 . I'll be looking forward to new projects.
piper - 03.12.2006, 05:35 Uhr
Titel:
kelmo hat folgendes geschrieben::
ice hat folgendes geschrieben::

A year ago Kanotix ranked #14 on Distrowatch; now it ranks #23 behind the likes of Puppy, Sabayon and Perspire. Do you have another explanation as to what caused Kanotix to sink faster than Bush's approval rating?


Lack of release and innovation.

This thread is turning into bullshit. Have a Nice Day.


I agree 200%

Crest hat folgendes geschrieben::
Don't start flame wars here, Kanotix has not deserved it.


another I Agree

Like I have always said

You want stable - install Sarge

You want testing - install Etch

Why can't people find a distro they want/use instead of bitching about it.

I can't wait till the day Etch is realeased and obsolete the same week. This is too funny, just like Sarge and 5 years later.....................................
@jens - 03.12.2006, 11:29 Uhr
Titel:
UncleDeadley hat folgendes geschrieben::
@jens,
I think jackie meant that etch isn't strictly the same as testing. One day, etch will become 'stable' and there will be a new 'testing'.


At the moment etch is strictly the same as "testing", as sarge was strictly the same as "testing" when woody was stable. As soon as etch will become stable a new guy from Toy Story will be strictly the same as "testing" - and of course SID is always unstable. That's the way Debian works.

Greetings
@jens
jackiebrown - 04.12.2006, 00:07 Uhr
Titel:
@jens hat folgendes geschrieben::
UncleDeadley hat folgendes geschrieben::
@jens,
I think jackie meant that etch isn't strictly the same as testing. One day, etch will become 'stable' and there will be a new 'testing'.


At the moment etch is strictly the same as "testing", as sarge was strictly the same as "testing" when woody was stable. As soon as etch will become stable a new guy from Toy Story will be strictly the same as "testing" - and of course SID is always unstable. That's the way Debian works.

Greetings
@jens


Yes, but that has nothing to do with Kanotix plans. It is to track Etch (not testing.)

The new testing is going to be called Lenny by the way.

I know how the naming process works and we all know that it comes from toy story. If we didn't I am sure your first post mentioning that would have sufficed.
DeepDayze - 04.12.2006, 00:48 Uhr
Titel:
Lets not lose sight of what Kanotix is all about:

a) Excellent hardware detection
b) Ease of installation
c) Fully Debian repo compatible - meaning you can choose from over 18,000 packages from standard Debian sid repos, unlike a few Debian forks that are restricted to certain "closed" repos.
anticapitalista - 04.12.2006, 01:33 Uhr
Titel:
DeepDayze hat folgendes geschrieben::
Lets not lose sight of what Kanotix is all about:

a) Excellent hardware detection
b) Ease of installation
c) Fully Debian repo compatible - meaning you can choose from over 18,000 packages from standard Debian sid repos, unlike a few Debian forks that are restricted to certain "closed" repos.


I agree , except to say that this is what Kanotix WAS about. It will NOT be about that [point (c)] in the future, whereas sidux will be.
DeepDayze - 04.12.2006, 19:55 Uhr
Titel:
@anticapitalista, you are right...only IF Kano takes Kanotix the *buntu route. If he takes the Debian Etch or Stable route then its also all good. We shall wait and see what he decides.
brizio2718 - 04.12.2006, 20:05 Uhr
Titel:
So if not Ubuntu (I hope NO), new Kanotix will be based on Debian Etch, not on Debian Testing? Its packets will be locked for years except of security updates and Kanotix packets?
Are you sure?
Daniele - 04.12.2006, 20:14 Uhr
Titel:
brizio2718 hat folgendes geschrieben::
So if not Ubuntu (I hope NO), new Kanotix will be based on Debian Etch, not on Debian Testing? Its packets will be locked for years except of security updates and Kanotix packets?
Are you sure?


We aren't sure about anything at this stage.

But once again: Etch IS Debian testing at the moment.

Nothing is ever "locked" in Debian: edit your sources.list and dist-upgrade to whatever you like (testing, Sid, even bits from experimental...)
anticapitalista - 04.12.2006, 20:17 Uhr
Titel:
DeepDayze hat folgendes geschrieben::
@anticapitalista, you are right...only IF Kano takes Kanotix the *buntu route. If he takes the Debian Etch or Stable route then its also all good. We shall wait and see what he decides.


Not ONLY if Kanotix takes the *buntu route. Kanotix will no longer be based on Sid so the repos, if Kano chooses to keep etch, will not include sid's ones, as it would certainly be suicidal with no/little support from the new kanotix.

BTW: I can fully understand why Kano wants to change kanotix from Sid, and I'm sure he will produce a great distro whatever it is based on.
brizio2718 - 04.12.2006, 20:29 Uhr
Titel:
Jackiebrown 4 or 5 posts ago seemed sure about this...
I know testing=etch NOW, BUT in a month it won't be so! If release date will be confirmed Etch will be new Stable in December... So my question...

I know I can do dist-upgrade to Sid but if I want Sid I follow slh&co on their new project.
If I have to dist-upgrade to testing why choose stable-Kanotix ??
Daniele - 04.12.2006, 20:59 Uhr
Titel:
brizio2718 hat folgendes geschrieben::


I know I can do dist-upgrade to Sid but if I want Sid I follow slh&co on their new project.
If I have to dist-upgrade to testing why choose stable-Kanotix ??


There is nothing difficult in an apt-get dist-upgrade. It is the *very basic* of Debian.
But of course it is entirely up to you which distribution to go with.
mylo - 04.12.2006, 23:09 Uhr
Titel:
nish hat folgendes geschrieben::

Kanotix made unstable stable for me.


available and reliable linux os for me

thanks!
nish - 05.12.2006, 01:24 Uhr
Titel:
Yes, it did - Kanotix wasn't unstable to me Sehr glücklich I am luckier than most I guess in that I have two linux partitions on my main machine so I can have two distros at my disposal. Right now I overwrote my most beloved (but abandoned a few months ago Kanotix - I thought it was an upgraded 2005-4 but it turns out it may have been a Bughunter!) with an Etch install...

and what is my main o/s: Kanotix Easter I commented out the Kanotix repos the other day. I don't know. Maybe sidux, maybe not and just stick with sid repos. Haven't decided. But as good as I am with all things deb now, after almost 3 years (time flies?) I don't think I can handle sid without scripts and a lot of help.

Playing with Etch now and it is quite easy. I will track it when it goes stable. Having Etch/soon-to-be-stable in the case of an emergency helps.

A lot. Waiting to see what Kano does. He is a master. But have to wait and see what he decides to be master of now Smilie

Nish
j.drake - 05.12.2006, 03:58 Uhr
Titel:
I'll miss it
wegface - 05.12.2006, 09:04 Uhr
Titel:
Ubuntu repos seem inevitable, they blend cutting edge with stability, which is the balance im sure Kano probably would like. All that work already done for him is a tempting prospect. As people keep saying the difference between testing and sid isnt much- and this is applicable to stability too. Testing isnt much more stable than sid- so basing Kanotix on testing would be little difference in workload for Kano.
Daniele - 05.12.2006, 09:18 Uhr
Titel:
wegface hat folgendes geschrieben::
Ubuntu repos seem inevitable, they blend cutting edge with stability, which is the balance im sure Kano probably would like. All that work already done for him is a tempting prospect. As people keep saying the difference between testing and sid isnt much- and this is applicable to stability too. Testing isnt much more stable than sid- so basing Kanotix on testing would be little difference in workload for Kano.


The difference between testing and Sid isn't much when it comes to bleeding edge, but it is a lot when it comes to stability. Right now testing is nearing release.

I have read the forums in both languages and it is quite clear that by far the majority of kanotix users are against Ubuntu. But again, this is Kano'd distro.
turtaf - 05.12.2006, 12:38 Uhr
Titel:
mh...
I'm thinking a lot about this theme...
My favourite and only distro is going to have a big change
This means it's somehow going to be a different distro, in the end.

Different base, it looks like it's going to be Ubuntu, after years of people talking not very kindly of it. (parassites, leechers, fork)

I dont' like radical changes, they are a sort of forgetting the past, or admitting great mistakes, things that I don't think are right in this case.

If Kanotix was famous for being a sid-based distro, with great repositories and hardware recognition (I think these are the most important caracteristic...), I think it'd be better to start a new project with different aims, than changing things in a well-working reality.

I know that It would be much harder work for kano, who I'd like to thank anyway for this unbelivable distro and what he made in this years, but I think it could be a clearer and cleaner way.

Kanotix was great for giving me the opportunity to have cutting-edge sw, almost stable, in order to enjoy almost real-time progress of applications, without having big troubles on my productivity... (just some crashes, very few...) and everything with the warranty of using 100% FREE SW, which was, for me, the most important thing.

It has been a great experience and I hope to go on with it (it depends on if kanotix turns non-debian based)

Ok, guys, sorry for bugging and it's all.

Thanks for your time and good luck to everybody!
Gowator - 05.12.2006, 12:59 Uhr
Titel:
Daniele hat folgendes geschrieben::
wegface hat folgendes geschrieben::
Ubuntu repos seem inevitable, they blend cutting edge with stability, which is the balance im sure Kano probably would like. All that work already done for him is a tempting prospect. As people keep saying the difference between testing and sid isnt much- and this is applicable to stability too. Testing isnt much more stable than sid- so basing Kanotix on testing would be little difference in workload for Kano.


The difference between testing and Sid isn't much when it comes to bleeding edge, but it is a lot when it comes to stability. Right now testing is nearing release.

I have read the forums in both languages and it is quite clear that by far the majority of kanotix users are against Ubuntu. But again, this is Kano'd distro.

I have to agree....

Zitat:

Ubuntu repos seem inevitable, they blend cutting edge with stability, which is the balance im sure Kano probably would like. All that work already done for him is a tempting prospect. As people keep saying the difference between testing and sid isnt much- and this is applicable to stability too. Testing isnt much more stable than sid- so basing Kanotix on testing would be little difference in workload for Kano.


For me its more complex than this ....
Just one example, I use bibblepro... Ubuntuers keep installing the .deb then compaining its unstable.
(As are Suse users who install the RH/FC RPM)
The point is of course it is, the Ubuntu lib's are NOT the debian libs.
Sure you can --force-all but why expect it to work?

This is just one example because I saw it on the forum for bibble ...
but its an old familiar problem for Suse users....
They download RH/Mandr* RPM's and expect them to work... but suse has hacked the libs and moved them about... so often vendors make a special Suse RPM... (afterall Suse is just a slackware "leech" whether thier userbase recognise this or not) ...
I'm not sure if Ubuntu deserves leech... but one thing is for sure, Ubuntu != Debian ... you can't expect any Debian .deb to work...
Daniele - 05.12.2006, 13:01 Uhr
Titel:
Ciao turtaf

Guarda che se l'unico cambio fosse da Sid a testing, la differenza neanche si noterebbe. Prova Parsix 0.85, se non mi credi: e' basato su Kanotix, Gnome e testing, ma i pacchetti sono molto piu' aggiornati di Kanotix 2006-01-RC4.
Il fatto e' che si dovranno necessariamente cambiare altre cose, visto che che quasi tutti i programmatori sono passati a sidux.
Poi se Kano sceglie Ubuntu e' tutto un'altro discorso. Mi pare di capire che non piace neanche a te.
Gowator - 05.12.2006, 17:09 Uhr
Titel:
Daniele hat folgendes geschrieben::
Ciao turtaf

Guarda che se l'unico cambio fosse da Sid a testing, la differenza neanche si noterebbe. Prova Parsix 0.85, se non mi credi: e' basato su Kanotix, Gnome e testing, ma i pacchetti sono molto piu' aggiornati di Kanotix 2006-01-RC4.

Yea and no, the differences tend to be small after an official Debian release and then large...the same goes for criticisms of the kanotix release cycle...
Its dependant to some extent on the Debian one... because the Debian stable tree influences testing freezes etc.
Zitat:

Il fatto e' che si dovranno necessariamente cambiare altre cose, visto che che quasi tutti i programmatori sono passati a sidux.
Poi se Kano sceglie Ubuntu e' tutto un'altro discorso. Mi pare di capire che non piace neanche a te.

Yes it seems a little affrettato to jump off the ship right now Traurig
I honestly don't care about loosing bleeding edge... but *buntu is just too much...I'd prefer to use testing to *buntu but the problem is security updates... but even if the team are jumping off the ship I'm waiting for kano to make his mind up....
To buntu or not to buntu .. that is the question?
(although it sounds better in Italian Sehr glücklich)
Daniele - 06.12.2006, 00:35 Uhr
Titel:
Gowator hat folgendes geschrieben::

Yes it seems a little affrettato to jump off the ship right now Traurig
I honestly don't care about loosing bleeding edge... but *buntu is just too much...I'd prefer to use testing to *buntu but the problem is security updates... but even if the team are jumping off the ship I'm waiting for kano to make his mind up....
To buntu or not to buntu .. that is the question?
(although it sounds better in Italian Sehr glücklich)


Nice, you can read Italian Sehr glücklich

As to security updates, testing does get them, though.
turtaf - 06.12.2006, 08:26 Uhr
Titel:
ciao Daniele,

al momento sto a vedere, Parsix l'ho già provata e la trovo molto interessante, ma mi trovo moooolto meglio con kanotix.
Il passaggio a testing potrei sopportarlo, lo so che i pacchetti passano da sid a testing in poco tempo, e non ho tutto questo bisogno di freschezza.

By now I'm just observing, I already tried Parsix and I find it very interesting, but I'm much more confortable with kanotix.
I could stand the switch to testing, I know that packages pass from sid to testing in a short time and I'm not in such a need of fresh stuff.

Volevo solo sottolineare che passare ad Ubuntu (come mi sembra pensare la maggior parte delle persone) sarebbe un cambiamento un po' tanto forte.

I just wanted to underline that passing to Ubuntu (as I guess most people here think) would be a too strong change.

Comunque non abbandono la nave, però mi riserbo il diritto di farlo nel momento in cui non mi piacerà più come prima

Anyway, I'm not jumping off anything, but I keep myself the right to do it in the moment I'll realize I don't like things as much as before.

Grazie a tutti
Thanks to everyone
Daniele - 06.12.2006, 15:57 Uhr
Titel:
Neanch'io abbandono la nave, ne' tanto meno passo al nuovo progetto.

Pero' se si passa ad Ubuntu, anche per me e' troppo da digerire.
Lanzi - 06.12.2006, 18:34 Uhr
Titel:
Raggazzi, è una gioa leggere italiano qui... Winken
Gowator - 06.12.2006, 20:55 Uhr
Titel:
Daniele hat folgendes geschrieben::
Gowator hat folgendes geschrieben::

Yes it seems a little affrettato to jump off the ship right now Traurig
I honestly don't care about loosing bleeding edge... but *buntu is just too much...I'd prefer to use testing to *buntu but the problem is security updates... but even if the team are jumping off the ship I'm waiting for kano to make his mind up....
To buntu or not to buntu .. that is the question?
(although it sounds better in Italian Sehr glücklich)


Nice, you can read Italian Sehr glücklich.
Not really but its much better than my German! Mit den Augen rollen

Zitat:

As to security updates, testing does get them, though.

Yes but not so frequently as testing... although you can argue that's because its already audited but like I say I'd rather pure ANY Debian than *buntu.

Zitat:
Neanch'io abbandono la nave, ne' tanto meno passo al nuovo progetto.

As I said: Neanch'io alleggerire la nave gettando il carico in acqua

OK perhaps writing is a bit ambitious!
Winken (I hope that's what I said) sorry its meant to be funny... Sehr glücklich cargo/burden/ristretto.... and it rhymes with distro...
Klenje - 06.12.2006, 21:08 Uhr
Titel:
Let's continue in Italian since someone started...
Uso da circa un anno Kanotix, perchè è stata la prima distro a supportare il mio portatile, e ci sono rimasto poichè mi trovavo bene. Ho imparato un bel pò di robe e ho trovato sempre un gran supporto qua o su IRC. Ora sinceramente non ho capito bene quale saranno gli sviluppi; se si passa a Debian testing, a breve termine non sarebbe male, in futuro nn so; se no, io sinceramente penso che una distribuzione basata su Ubuntu nn abbia grandi possibilità di sviluppo, c'è già troppo movimento attorno. In questo caso, penso che proseguirò con l'altro progetto; ho dato un'occhiata a Parsix e non mi piace perchè c'è Gnome, però per il resto l'idea è buona. Se no volevo provare qualcos'altro, ad esempio Sabayon, perchè ormai senza Beryl non si può vivere Sehr glücklich Quello che mi fa rimanere su Debian è sicuramente la gestione dei pacchetti: apt è il migliore.

For everybody, I'd like to thank Kano and all the developers for the great work in these years, and wish everyone a great success in their future projects. Thanks guys Smilie
The_Seeker - 06.12.2006, 21:41 Uhr
Titel:
We get the idea, you can speak Italian; now how about taking it to a private session.
jackiebrown - 07.12.2006, 06:22 Uhr
Titel:
I just assumed this was they're thread Lachen
Gowator - 07.12.2006, 12:59 Uhr
Titel:
The_Seeker hat folgendes geschrieben::
We get the idea, you can speak Italian; now how about taking it to a private session.

Erm like on the Italian forum?

You might not realise but Latin languages offer a good deal more expression than English especially over subjectivity.
What can be expressed elegantly in Italian or a latin language often sounds "crude" in English. English is my mother tongue but I still at times find it easier to express certain things in French... simply because it offers more subjectivity.

I haven't spent more than 1/2 hour in my life learning Italian but I can read the thread fine.(OK I speak French so its a good start but equally to any latin language)... and asking the native Italians to express themselves in the same way in English is a bit like handcuffing them. I have met lots of people through the internet many of whom you presume speak great English but its often not the case.(I often tell French speakers to reply in French if they prefer and they usually do).. many spend a long time with spell and grammer checkers and then post something they hope has the right tone....
The_Seeker - 07.12.2006, 13:14 Uhr
Titel:
Zitat:

You might not realise but Latin languages offer a good deal more expression than English especially over subjectivity.

I can believe it as a lot of English words are derived from Latin.

I apologise for my previous message. I've been reading it back and I sound rude. Maybe I'm just jealous that I only know one language.
Gowator - 07.12.2006, 15:47 Uhr
Titel:
The_Seeker hat folgendes geschrieben::
Zitat:

You might not realise but Latin languages offer a good deal more expression than English especially over subjectivity.

I can believe it as a lot of English words are derived from Latin.

I apologise for my previous message. I've been reading it back and I sound rude. Maybe I'm just jealous that I only know one language.

Its never too late to learn... even though stats say otherwise Sehr glücklich

I don't think you were rude especially just hadn't thought it out Sehr glücklich or perhaps because you were restricted to English Sehr glücklich which doesn't have the same expressiveness as latin lang's...Frage

Ive been surprised by quite a few "proficient English posters" when you meet them in person... they often make a great effort to post in English and then worry it sounds to "direct"...

Its like the joke I tried to make earlier....
"Cargo" or Carico has a lot of subtle uses in Italian... as in English we would say don't throw the baby out with the bathwater...
but it also can mean a burden or strong coffee.... or
"distacco di carico" to shed a load....
In this context strong coffee is a reference to programming the world over...
a burden can be testing.... but all of that is lost in English...

Then again it might not make ANY SENSE at all to an Italian...
That is kinda the problem non native English speakers face everyday...
I post on a few boards in French, sometimes people just Frage because I said something weird... makes sense to me but native speakers just don't say it that way...
DeepDayze - 09.12.2006, 00:47 Uhr
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@Seeker..at least kanotix is an international thing Smilie
DeepDayze - 09.12.2006, 00:49 Uhr
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its good to get exposure to various languages...even to be able to get the gist of what's written/spoken.
nemesis - 09.12.2006, 08:21 Uhr
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Kanotix is the only OS I've found that works for me, and I don't think it has too much to do with SID. I don't care if Kano decides to base it off Windows, I think I'll stick with this as long as it's around.
Daniele - 09.12.2006, 09:48 Uhr
Titel:
nemesis hat folgendes geschrieben::
Kanotix is the only OS I've found that works for me, and I don't think it has too much to do with SID.


Very true

Zitat:
I don't care if Kano decides to base it off Windows


Lachen
PlatinumPlus - 13.12.2006, 14:18 Uhr
Titel:
Why do people hate Ubuntu so much? Does it not work? Is it not linux? Does it not send CDs for free yet there are distro that make you pay?
MIster_Lag - 13.12.2006, 17:51 Uhr
Titel: RE: NEW: kanotix to be based on ubuntu
I have used Kanotix in the past, but because I was first a Mepis user I stuck with that distro as my main OS. I went through the change to Ubuntu repos with Mepis and did not find a change in the handling of the OS. The Mepis distro did not take on a K/Ubuntu feel, but stayed a Mepis distro: same installer, same utilities, same basic package selection, no sudo'ing, and same look and feel. Mepis is not a Kubuntu clone. Mepis using Dapper repos is stable (except for the video driver problem awhile back Verlegen ) and updates are routinely made so it is an actively maintained repo (LTS). Mepis based on testing was still a problem at times, especially when a new KDE hit the repos. Currently, a fresh Mepis install can still have many updates, but not nearly as many as when it was based on the testing branch. I believe the kernels are Ubuntu based, but come from a Mepis repo so they are tweaked.

If done right, Kanotix can still be Kanotix (custom script, utilities, and installer, etc.), but just use the software packages from Ubuntu. I currently see the K/Ubuntu clones starting to come out, just tweak the final product and call it a new OS, but somehow this is probably not what Kanotix will be.
MIster_Lag - 13.12.2006, 17:52 Uhr
Titel: RE: NEW: kanotix to be based on ubuntu
I have used Kanotix in the past, but because I was first a Mepis user I stuck with that distro as my main OS. I went through the change to Ubuntu repos with Mepis and did not find a change in the handling of the OS. The Mepis distro did not take on a K/Ubuntu feel, but stayed a Mepis distro: same installer, same utilities, same basic package selection, no sudo'ing, and same look and feel. Mepis is not a Kubuntu clone. Mepis using Dapper repos is stable (except for the video driver problem awhile back Verlegen ) and updates are routinely made so it is an actively maintained repo (LTS). Mepis based on testing was still a problem at times, especially when a new KDE hit the repos. Currently, a fresh Mepis install can still have many updates, but not nearly as many as when it was based on the testing branch. I believe the kernels are Ubuntu based, but come from a Mepis repo so they are tweaked.

If done right, Kanotix can still be Kanotix (custom script, utilities, and installer, etc.), but just use the software packages from Ubuntu. I currently see the K/Ubuntu clones starting to come out, just tweak the final product and call it a new OS, but somehow this is probably not what Kanotix will be.
MIster_Lag - 13.12.2006, 17:58 Uhr
Titel: RE: NEW: kanotix to be based on ubuntu
I apoligize for my double post. When I submitted I was told I had an authentication error. I then resubmitted before I checked if it had actually been posted. Oops! Verlegen
ceti - 13.12.2006, 22:41 Uhr
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Yes, MEPIS is MEPIS, no matter the Ubuntu repos. MEPIS is still a GREAT distro an I don't believe Kanotix will not be Kanotix anymore if Kano chooses the Ubuntu road.
Etch? Sid? Dapper? Edgy? Who cares? People want a secure, working distro, no more, no less.

Cheers
Gowator - 14.12.2006, 15:31 Uhr
Titel:
PlatinumPlus hat folgendes geschrieben::
Why do people hate Ubuntu so much?
That's a long answer....
For me its the sudo policy and refusal to discuss it.
The fact they repackage all the packages specifically so they won't work with Debian .. or to work around the su issues depending how you view it...
You could add the fact the forums have 100,000 n00bs and about 6 people who actually understand the basics of linux... ?? or just that its killing its parent distro???
Zitat:

Does it not work?

Sometimes .... but the more you want to do with it or take control the harder it gets... its targetting n00b users from Windows and trying to make linux act like Windows.... most of us are using linux because we don't like the way Windows works... the last thing we want is linux being progressively turned into a OS we detest.

Zitat:

Is it not linux? Does it not send CDs for free yet there are distro that make you pay?

linux is a kernel... pure and simple... is Ubuntu a distro...??? depends...
I don't count kanotix as a distro..I class it as a stabilisation of Debian unstable... that doesn't make it any less incredible but kanotix is "just" Debian unstable made usuable for everyone... and everything in Kanotix is PURE debian...
In contrast nothing in Ubuntu is pure Debian, its hacked Debian and nothing useful goes back to Debian, its a one way process...
Even if Ubuntu fix bugs is useless because they already hack it so much to save the user having a root password...
This introduces security problems in itself and to make pure Debian from Ubuntu is back engineering... a waste of time.

Its easier for the Debian devs to fix the bugs from scratch or security audit from scratch than a Ubuntu package...

Yes they send FREE CD's... yes that's good but that doesn't make it a good distro...

Just an example, I use closed source photo developing SW... they package it for debian... but the Ubuntu people are complaining its unstable... of course its unstable its NOT designed for Ubuntu...
For every tweak they have to make for Ubuntu it makes it more unstable in Debian!
My paid for $120 software is becoming useless because of Ubuntu users complaining it doesn't work in Ubuntu...

the same goes for everything like driver support .. the debian ones are if Ubuntu continues trying to kill Debian not going to be available and only work with Ubuntu... or be unstable in Debian... My printer I bought because its supported under debian... Samsung give .deb drivers... but if they change these to work for Ubuntu they no longer work for Debian...

but largely Ubuntu is nothing without debian, they take all the code and rehack it... they can't stand on thier own feet so they are like a child living at their parents place stealing money from their parents wallets and slowly poisioning their parents in the hope of inheriting everything!
Daniele - 14.12.2006, 16:26 Uhr
Titel:
Gowator hat folgendes geschrieben::

but largely Ubuntu is nothing without debian, they take all the code and rehack it... they can't stand on thier own feet so they are like a child living at their parents place stealing money from their parents wallets and slowly poisioning their parents in the hope of inheriting everything!


Very, very good. It is one of the best Ubuntu characterizations I have ever read. It even helped me understand why I hate Ubuntu so much.
maslota - 15.12.2006, 12:32 Uhr
Titel:
Zitat:

In contrast nothing in Ubuntu is pure Debian, its hacked Debian and nothing useful goes back to Debian, its a one way process...

You should look at changelog of xorg debian package. Ubuntu is not an evil personified. I don't like their sudo policy, but I could point something I don't like in every main stream distribution.
pfe1223 - 15.12.2006, 13:24 Uhr
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I kind of like sudo, but I guess that makes an outsidre around here. While it is true that you use most all of their code from Debian, they have played a major role in getting Xorg to work (just like maslota said).

What I think people should be concerned about is Ubuntu's usage of closed source software. Launchpad is the best example of this. It complies information from anything from bugs, track technical requests, handle translations, etc. Shuttleworth said he would opensource it, but has yet to do so. In fact he encourages people to use Launchpad with their projects. Google has shown us that information is power, and it looks like Shuttleworth is trying to closely guard this power. Upstart is another project that is not yet open sourced. There are a million reasons to distrust Ubuntu, but I think that it is only fair to recognize that they do some good work for Debian. Now if you wanted to say that they take more than they give back, well...
Daniele - 15.12.2006, 14:07 Uhr
Titel:
pfe1223 hat folgendes geschrieben::
I kind of like sudo, but I guess that makes an outsidre around here.


Sudo has never worried me. All it takes, if I remember correctly, is "sudo passwd root"

It is everything else that worries me, especially this funny feeling of "a child who wants to murder his parents"

Ubuntu zealots who write all over the places: "Debian must die" doesn't help for sure.
michael7 - 15.12.2006, 23:34 Uhr
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I share many of Daniele's opinions, especially about the not-so-veiled effort by Ubuntu zealots to undermine Debian. I, too, have seen the "Debian must die" graffiti, even in the comments section of distrowatch.com. After reading the Debian Social Contract ( www.debian.org/social_contract ), I think any reasonable person would find this behavior sick.

Debian represents so much that is good and right about the free software movement. I can not comprehend why anyone, with the exception of M$, would want to attack and destroy it. Regardless, I'm not worried because the Debian product is too good. Yes, it takes a bit more configuring than, say, Kanotix but it is rock solid. Besides, how can you destroy something that is being created by an all-volunteer organization for all the right reasons?

Enough already. I don't think any of this is productive. I'll just go my merry way, using Debian and hoping that Kano decides to use the "testing" repositories of Debian (with the occasional unstable package, of course) as the foundation of the new Kanotix.
Daniele - 15.12.2006, 23:51 Uhr
Titel:
michael7 hat folgendes geschrieben::
.

Debian represents so much that is good and right about the free software movement. I can not comprehend why anyone, with the exception of M$, would want to attack and destroy it.


Exactly. Isn't that an extremely interesting question to ask?
morris - 18.12.2006, 00:37 Uhr
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Well,
If we think about how the real world out there goes, perhaps we'll start realizing that chances are that a multi-millionaire like Mr. *buntu, *could* have _some_ money invested in stock market ..... how goes the capitalization of Debian these days, compared to M$'s ????? Winken Winken Winken

Just my two cents, a little OT and I apologize for that, but we have to consider things like these to understand the real dynamic of strange long-term attempts we are seeing these days. (IMHO)

morris
arcturus - 19.12.2006, 23:12 Uhr
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With all the discontent among Debian developers, the latest one HERE, is it any wonder?

Thank goodness Ubuntu came along. Some one needed to give the Debian dev's a kick in the a** and Ubuntu is just the ticket.
Daniele - 20.12.2006, 22:15 Uhr
Titel:
arcturus hat folgendes geschrieben::
With all the discontent among Debian developers, the latest one HERE, is it any wonder?

Thank goodness Ubuntu came along. Some one needed to give the Debian dev's a kick in the a** and Ubuntu is just the ticket.


If you believe that dictatorship is better than Democracy and Freedom, then you are right.
chipsburner - 21.12.2006, 19:10 Uhr
Titel: does it really matter what its based on?
Hello, I am basically a Mepis user. That being said, I always follow Kanotix, (and PCLinuxOS too) and perhaps now Sidux, but to a lesser degree. Kanotix has worked on hardware that no other distro will, even on laptops without a hard drive (at least 2006 rc4 did, have not tried 2006-1 rc's to see if they will yet), so I do use it on some computers. It has been a great distro, and deserves a shot at the top of distrowatch where it belongs.

I do think Kano is doing the right thing by leaving the sid repo's. Its perhaps the only way to create a more mainstream, popular with newbies, and less problem upgrading distro. I have to say what I liked about Kanotix was the hardware support and how great everything seems to work after a fresh install from the live cd.

Warren at Mepis, already went thru this change. Change is not easy, Mepis lost base users, as Kanotix will too, but also gained many new users. Its perhaps worse for Kanotix, as it seems that they are losing many good people who helped develop the distro to the new Sidux project.

I was one of the ones that was against the Mepis move to ubuntu repo's. But have changed my mind after the release of Mepis 6, which is a lot better than 3.4.3 based on Debian (breaks easy ungrading). Have never really like Ubuntu much.

That being said, about Ubuntu, also the millionare who is behind it, there are a lot of good things about ubuntu we should think about if Kano does choice it. Mark Shuttleworth does donate the money to support it, that cannot make him all bad. Yes at some point he wants to get a return on his money, but its the server version (service support too) that he plans on selling. How can you hate a distro that gives away there system, and even free cd's, and their work based on Debian. Next point, ubuntu steals from Debian, wrong. While ubuntu would not exsist without debian, as basically ubuntu debs are debian debs, with only about 5 to 10% being slightly reworked, enough to break Kanotix based on sid, if u used ubuntu repo's at this point. What Debian has stood for it the purest GPL out there. And that means it ok to use their debs and even modify them. As long as the debs (ubuntu) continue to be GPL. Same is true with many other distro's, PCLinusOS uses Mandrivia RPM's with some mod's and creates its own repo's. Hate sudoing? I do too, fortunately, Mepis based on ubuntu repo's is still Mepis, without that sudoers thing in it. I would suspect a kanotix based on ubuntu would not change either.

When Mepis was in the decision process of changing repo's, I made several suggestions there. 1. change to Debain Stable (well, that would make a very very stable but old and almost useless distro compared to others) 2. continue with both a distro based on Debian sid and another one based on ubuntu, as least for awhile. (probably too late to do this now, as many of the devs have bolted) This would at least, save many of the base users, and give them a chance to look at the ubuntu based kanotix too. But its twice as much work, with a smaller team now.

One thing I do know for sure. If Kano does release a Kanotix based on ubuntu, you know we just going have to download, burn, and try the live cd. His work is just too good not to try. Kano has made some hard decisions here, and deserves all our support, whatever he decides to do. He gets very little funding for all his free work.
arcturus - 21.12.2006, 22:06 Uhr
Titel:
Chipsburner, excellent post! It certainly carries more authority than the whiners who resort to accusation and innuendo. Yes, Kanotix will lose a number of their followers no doubt. So be it, progress always means change. Mepis is a great example.
anticapitalista - 21.12.2006, 23:16 Uhr
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Mepis is indeed a good example, but, I would argue not for what arcturus implies..

When Mepis decided to use the Ubuntu repos, there was/(is) a great deal of hostility amongst Mepis users. Some, maybe even most, followed Warren, others had to find a new home. Quite a few changed distros and ended up here or straight debian, others continued with Mepis 3.4.3 (the last debian one) and changed the repos to include sid and not only etch as by default, and upgraded through the help of this forum (that is basically what I did, though I also had Kanotix already installed on another partition). Those who didn't change were basically left on their own and now have all sorts of problems upgrading their system through the debian (Etch) repos.

Now this is the biggest difference.

Some ex-Kanotix devs haven't just whined and resorted to accusation and innuendo at all. Instead they have set up an alternative for those who want to continue the Sid/Kanotix tradition. So for Kanotix users "progress always means change" has 2 choices. Follow whatever Kano chooses (and I sincerely wish him the best of luck, as I do with Warren at Mepis) or go with the ex-devs at Sidux.
Unfortunately Mepis didn't offer the second to its users.
maia - 22.12.2006, 00:25 Uhr
Titel:
i simply don't understand all the talk here about kanotix-sid having been too unstable. of course sid is unstable by definition and dist-upgrades could sometimes produce problems (even though fixes were quickly given here or in irc). but if you find that too complicated or time-consuming you always have the choice of going the lazy way by not dist-upgrading and waiting for the next rock-solid stable kanotix (now: sidux) release and doing a simple update install. there might even be a sidux dvd release soon so that you don't even have to install too many additional programs. so, where is the problem? i don't see any and no need for ubuntu-repos either...
Daniele - 22.12.2006, 01:10 Uhr
Titel:
maia hat folgendes geschrieben::
so, where is the problem? i don't see any and no need for ubuntu-repos either...


Exactly. There is no problem nor any need for Ubuntu repos. I can see only a couple of Ubuntu zealots who are being arrogant and rude, as it is normal for them.
aking469 - 22.12.2006, 14:11 Uhr
Titel:
Danielle, That is exactly what I have done on my 2 desktop computers. I installed 2005-4 and haven't changed them. I have updated programs as I saw fit. Otherwise, I have left the kernel and then OS alone. I am geeky enough to get the codecs I wanted, install programs I wanted, and use Debian repositories/packages, but I didn't want to have to "fix" the system repeatedly. I use Kanotix because of the stability and ease of use, not because I want to be cutting edge. I have tried others...haven't gotten rid of Kanotix yet....but, have gone to OSX via a MacBook for my laptop. I don't know how all of this is going to play out. But the characteristics that Kanotix displays , the ability to change the system w/o herculean efforts, the use of synaptic, the Debian base, are what I wanted in a Distro. The other "easy" distros seem to be too restrictive. I can't as easily do the things I wanted. Sidux does look interesting. But, they already are saying not to DU......man I do not have hours each day to spend making sure my computers work. Sure Ubuntu is a bit annoying, but if that is what it takes to stay stable and productive...so be it.
maia - 22.12.2006, 15:16 Uhr
Titel:
then, aking: what's the point? you put the iso-file on your hard drive, install sidux fromiso and after 10 min you have a stable linux on your machine. you install some additional programs and codecs via apt-get, do some configuration work ... et voila.

you haven't got the time and/or nerve to bother with the problems emerging eventually from dist-upgrades? fine, so you simply do not dist-upgrade your system and wait three, four months for the next stable release instead. then you do an update-install via cd, do some apt-get install for the missing programs (takes you half an hour max) and you live in tranquility for the next three, four months, and so on...

so there is no stability problem whatsoever. and even if you are dist-upgrading, what you are not obliged to do, btw, you can easily prevent your system from not running: just copy an image of your system before dist-upgrading (partimage!) and restore your old system in case the dist-upgrade produces major problems.

i admit that ubuntu or suse with their m$-like feeling may be fine for those new to linux. but increased stablility with ubuntu is a myth.
morris - 22.12.2006, 15:18 Uhr
Titel:
@Daniele,
ditto.

N.B.: I've been an *happy* user of Mepis, Ubuntu and the likes, before installing Kanotix, and I'm grateful to Kano for all he did for it.
I can understand his needs to change, really, but I honestly think I'd have chosen to stay with Mepis (or K-Ubuntu), if my choices were between Ubuntu and Ubuntu.

@chipburner: I think I get your point, and you're absolutely right when you say that's perfectly legal to take from Debian the way Ubuntu's doing: that's GPL(s). My point is that I see a strategy in doing this this way, while I see few others considering different agendas, but could be my personal paranoia .... Winken

I agree with Maia in seeing no problems in sid, after all linux is all about
*learning* to use an os, and that strange feeling of wetting your feet when you face things not going the way you want are part of my everyday job (yes, I use sid at work .... Geschockt).
In my experience it's all in installing what you _need_, knowing it at your best, and being careful before upgrade-update. Nothing unrealistic.

I'm just spending my two cents.

morris

-Timeo danaos et dona ferentes - Winken
shadowcr - 22.12.2006, 17:33 Uhr
Titel:
There's a third way to use an OS. As maia already mentioned, you can either dist-upgrade, if you're daring and if you can compensate lost time by working twice as hard. Or you can let your system become stale, only upgrading with the next release.

But imagine this scenario: the installed OS is one month old, the next release date is uncertain. I want to install a little program, let's make it of the k-variety. Now I can either wait some months, or risk breaking my system by upgrading all kinds of dependencies. Not good choices.

With Ubuntu, or any other stable base, I don't run into these kinds of forced choices. It simply runs. For people who are not obsessed with shiniest innovations (why don't you run experimental then, anyway? sometimes Sid considerably lags behind Ubuntu), that's a very good thing.
Daniele - 22.12.2006, 20:04 Uhr
Titel:
Let's call it it testing, instead of Sid.
Testing has a lot fewer bugs and it is normally only a couple of weeks behind Sid, bleeding edge enough almost for everybody. The only time when you shouldn't use testing (or Sid, for that matter) is immediately after a release.
As to Sid lagging behind Ubuntu, that is a contradiction in terms, if it is true that Ubuntu is a Sid snapshot (I know, Ubuntu will have a more recent Gnome)
maia - 22.12.2006, 21:26 Uhr
Titel:
shadowcr: yes, you could get some dependency problems. especially when release cycles are stretched too long as it was the case with kanotix this year. with 3-4 sidux-releases a year the problems shouldn't be that big anyway and if there are dvd-releases as well, dependency problems due to installing additional software are minimized once more.

but what would you really win by sticking to ubuntu? the main-repos are maintained, yes, and problems only occur from time to time. but what about universe/multiverse? nearly everyone using ubuntu gets a bunch of programs from these repos and there you can get - by installing this and that - many stability problems as well and the concept of a "simply running" ubuntu quickly becomes wishful thinking.
chipsburner - 25.12.2006, 06:42 Uhr
Titel:
anticapitalista hat folgendes geschrieben::
Mepis is indeed a good example, but, I would argue not for what arcturus implies..

When Mepis decided to use the Ubuntu repos, there was/(is) a great deal of hostility amongst Mepis users. Some, maybe even most, followed Warren, others had to find a new home. Quite a few changed distros and ended up here or straight debian, others continued with Mepis 3.4.3 (the last debian one) and changed the repos to include sid and not only etch as by default, and upgraded through the help of this forum (that is basically what I did, though I also had Kanotix already installed on another partition). Those who didn't change were basically left on their own and now have all sorts of problems upgrading their system through the debian (Etch) repos.

Now this is the biggest difference.

Some ex-Kanotix devs haven't just whined and resorted to accusation and innuendo at all. Instead they have set up an alternative for those who want to continue the Sid/Kanotix tradition. So for Kanotix users "progress always means change" has 2 choices. Follow whatever Kano chooses (and I sincerely wish him the best of luck, as I do with Warren at Mepis) or go with the ex-devs at Sidux.
Unfortunately Mepis didn't offer the second to its users.


I would have to agree with you Anti, that Mepis should have continued at least provided some support for the Debian based 3.4.3, or better still released some Mepis distros based on Debian as well as Ubuntu repo's. Not wise to put all your eggs in the ubuntu basket. He would have at least kept all his base that way. Now it would have been a lot more work for him, but really he should have done it. Now only support for 3.4.3 on Mepis, is basically you. No more kernel upgrades for 3.4.3 by
Warren anymore. Any questions, I referr them to you, as even the mods are suggesting upgrades to Mepis 6 mostly.

But Warren and Kano are going do what they think right for them and their distro's, not what I think. Somehow, Sid, must be a lot of work compared to the Ubuntu repo's to keep patched and working for a distro like Kanotix or Sidux. The timing to release a distro based on
Sid was probably critical. Take for example, Mepis 3.4.3, USB flash drives worked in RC3, but not the finial, only a couple of weeks later. Sid was undergoing a lot of new files (changes) at that time. Kanotix had a release of 6 weeks difference when Mepis 3.4.3 came out, and everything including the flash drives seemed to work in it. I do think this was a very bad time to be trying to author a distro based on Sid, but the Kanotix team did manage it. Perhaps, Sid has settled down a lot since then.

I do think Kanotix based on Ubuntu repo's will be a better more stable (upgrading) disto for new users, but perhaps, not, for power users. Not that power users will see less apps, as I have been able to basically use debian deb's whenever a ubuntu one is now available without any problems so far. Not that I would not eventually. I do think the ubuntu deb's are hacked a lot less than people think. Its basically still just Debian.

Still, you just got to love the thinking behind pure Debian itself.
littlepeon - 10.01.2007, 19:21 Uhr
Titel:
hey there....i've been on vacation far away from computers for a while, so i just now heard the BAD NEWS.....
IMHO, what made Kanotix special was the fact that it made SID work and work well! to its credit, i have seen about 6 or 7 distros that are based on Kanotix--NOT Ubuntu and not "pure" Debian SID. It was one of the few that added enough pieces that made a WHOLE distro and not just parts (exampe: Operator, Damn Small Linux, STD).Not only that, but in the resent release candidates the focus seemed to be on the look and feel of the system (beryl.splashy,etc.) Alot of work and programming has gone into making SID work--something it doesnt do from just an "apt-get dist-upgrade"(if there is any argument about that, just look at all the fix-xxx scripts included w/Kanotix)
The co-operation of Kanotix with the Debian repository was what attracted me to it. Ubuntu/Freepire/Mempis are all dependent on their repackaged versions of the software....if a person wanted to be dependent on a company for releasing software fixes, then they might as well use $Microsoft$ !!! (Heck thats why most people use SID instead of stable Debian--the quicker updated to software) I recently got into a long debate on the Freespire forum about the longevity of that O.S.----as i stated there, i have seen Debian grow and flourish while Debian based distros come and go (Corel, Stormix, Libranet, Genie O.S.)
Most people i know instead of using another version of Ubuntu will "cut out the middle-man" and just use Ubuntu----although i HATE it, it has quite a following.

Good Luck in the NEW YEAR (2007)
-Peon
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